Out of Sight (Revised)

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JJHenderson
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Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:50 am

V2:

How much is already beyond our sight?
Galaxies charge towards oblivion
like fetuses towards a chilling light,

or shrapnel shot from a blast of dynamite
with all the shards sent glinting to the sun.
How much is "all?" Ready, beyond our sight,

and still revolving, fragment satellites
beckon like everything we’ve left undone,
like fetuses inside a changing light.

Our births are fractures, mass campaigns of night
lost to the day, the partial lives begun.
How much is already beyond our sight

before we breach our lids to look? We might
have seen nothing, darkness, not any one,
like fetuses behind a dimming light.

What’s left but shreds and specks? They're cosmic mites
from battles with dark matters partly won.
How much? It’s already beyond our sight.
We’re fetuses outside that warming light.



V1:
How much is already beyond our sight?
Galaxies charge towards oblivion
like fetuses towards a chilling light,

or shrapnel shot from blasts of dynamite
and all the shards sent glinting to the sun.
How much is "all?" Ready, beyond our sight,

it’s still revolving; fragment satellites
beckon like everything we’ve left undone,
like fetuses inside a changing light.

Our births are fractures, mass campaigns of night
lost to the day, the partial lives begun.
How much is already beyond our sight

before we breach our lids to look? We might
have seen nothing, darkness, not any one,
like fetuses behind a dimming light.

What’s left are shreds and specks, just motes and mites,
The aftermaths of battles partly won.
How much? It’s already beyond our sight.
We’re fetuses outside that warming light.

L4-5: changed "or shrapnel shot out from a dynamite / blast all"
L7: changed "with" to "like."
L10: changed "war" to "mass."
L16: changed "the" to "just."
Last edited by JJHenderson on Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:49 am, edited 5 times in total.
Macavity
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Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:39 am

Hi JJ,
Some good lines that keep the clockwork structure ticking the interest box.
like fetuses towards a chilling light
Found that analogy particularly striking.
or shrapnel shot out from a dynamite
blast, all the shards sent glinting to the sun.
Like the sonic threads of sharpnel/shot/shards and charge/chilling, tightens the mechanistic form.
Our births are fractures, blood campaigns of night
Just a thought, for some colouring. Though my thoughts also strayed to planetary births.
before we breach our lids to look?
Not sure. I think of lifting eyelids. Perhaps a play with breech birth. It does thread with fracture and violence and breaking boundaries.
like fetuses behind a dimming light.
Another interesting simile

Overule, the poem reflected for me the human condition, the limitations, transience, the fragmentary nature of existence. But if we see the consequences, would that change those outcomes? Space, the 'final frontier' will always fascinate :D My mind did filter the poem in terms of planets/orbits.

How much is all? I'll leave that to the omniscient One :D

enjoyed

Phil

ps punctuation issue L6?
ray miller
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Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:35 pm

I thought it was an enjoyable and interesting read. Well, actually my first thought was, oh no, another fuckin' villanelle. But it's a lot better than most villanelles I've read.

or shrapnel shot out from a dynamite
blast, all the shards sent glinting to the sun.
How much is all? Ready, beyond our sight,

I think you need Already. It makes far greater sense, despite the slight hiccup in metre and the abundance of "all" sounds.

fragment satellites
beckon with everything we’ve left undone, - not sure what you're getting at there

before we breach our lids to look? - very good, the double meaning of breach
I'm out of faith and in my cups
I contemplate such bitter stuff.
JJHenderson
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Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:34 am

Hi Phil,

That first simile inspired most of the poem, so I'm glad you liked it. I wasn't fond of "war campaigns" either. Blood campaigns is interesting but maybe a bit too stark. I might go for something more neutral like "long" and just let the connotation of "campaign" as referring to war sit in the background. Was also unsure about "breach our lids." I originally had "crack our lids," but thought of "breach" as better tying back into the war/violence metaphors, with, indeed, "breech birth" being a connotation as well. I will think on it. What issue do you have with the punctuation in L6?

I will say that a major influence behind the themes was hearing many years ago a scientist (I forget who; maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson?) talking about how if humanity had come along much later it would've been possible to look at the night sky and not see anything as other galaxies would be too far away for their light to reach us; which got me thinking about The Big Bang as a kind of birth, but also a violent one, and how that ties to our own existence of coming into the world with so much having already happened and not being able to perceive it all. I'm not saying I got all of that into the poem (of course our intentions and what a poem actually is are rarely the same thing), but they were just some of the things on my mind in the writing of it.

As always, thanks for the careful and thoughtful reading.

***

Hi Ray,

LOL, I'm delighted to hear you think this is better than most villanelles you've read. I've written a half-dozen of them and aren't completely satisfied with any of them. A very hard form to work in with more pitfalls than virtues, but the best can have an incantatory like power.

I will think about changing L6, but to me part of the interest in villanelles is taking the refrains and varying them, either through changing some of the words or through changing the syntax. I wonder if the difficulty is that it's not clear that "all" in "how much is all" is referring back to "all the shards?" I mean, it makes sense to me, but I'm in a rather privileged position having written the damn thing, lol.

Glad you liked "breach our lids." As I said to Phil I was unsure about that one.
fragment satellites
beckon with everything we’ve left undone, - not sure what you're getting at there
I think it would've made more semantic sense to write it as "beckon like everything that's left undone," the idea being they're symbols of how much that one can do in life, but also how impossible it is to do it all, both as individuals and as a species; the only reason I went with "beckon with" instead is because I didn't like having two "likes" so close together, since the next line has one as well. Let me know what you think.
MilesTRanter
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Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:35 am

Hi JJ,

Being a science and space enthusiast, I like this villanelle. I’ve heard and watched Neil DeGrass Tyson numerous times, as well as many other astronomers and physicists, so I’m your ideal reader I reckon.

I like the fact that you vary the syntax and punctuation in the refrains. It gives the poem more interest.

In L4, I’m not sure if that enjambment to L5 is smooth enough. Perhaps you don’t want it to be. But if you do want it to be smoother, perhaps you could try:

or shrapnel shot from a blast of dynamite,
all the shards sent glinting to the sun.


I got that “How much is all” refers to the shards.

The juxtaposition between the astronomical images and war is fascinating. What most people don’t know is that, despite all the news and the horrible things going on in Ukraine, for instance, we actually have fewer wars than we’ve ever had in history.

The fetus and the birth of the universe and the birth of stars and planets are all linked in a way. It’s fascinating to think about.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this:

fragment satellites
beckon with everything we’ve left undone,


But I think I kind of get the gist of it. There are many things about the universe we don’t know and many things we may never know. In fact, there are questions about nature that we might not ever even think to ask. And there are things we don’t know that we don’t even know we don’t know.
Will the human mind ever be able to solve some of the great mysteries? Consciousness is one of them. (I think we'll figure out that one eventually.) Dark matter? Dark energy? Who knows?

And then there is the accelerated expansion of space-time. If it keeps going the way it’s going (and that’s not definite), then any people (or post-humans or machines or whatnot) living a trillion years from now will not be able to know about the Big Bang because all that they’ll be able to see with their best telescopes will be only the Milky Way (which will have merged with Andromeda). No other galaxies will be visible. So we are living in a special time where we can observe billions of galaxies and see the cosmic microwave background radiation, which is the most important evidence for the Big Bang. In a trillion years, the CMB will be too red-shifted to observe. From Wikipedia:
Assuming the universe keeps expanding and it does not suffer a Big Crunch, a Big Rip, or another similar fate, the cosmic microwave background will continue redshifting until it will no longer be detectable, and will be superseded first by the one produced by starlight, and perhaps, later by the background radiation fields of processes that may take place in the far future of the universe such as proton decay, evaporation of black holes, and positronium decay.
Last edited by MilesTRanter on Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Macavity
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Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:57 am

You have a comma L6 and a capital letter L7. L16/L17 similar issue.

Phil
MilesTRanter
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Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:33 am

Macavity wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:57 am
You have a comma L6 and a capital letter L7. L16/L17 similar issue.
I noticed that, too, actually, but forgot to mention it when I got carried away with the cosmology stuff! :oops:
Macavity
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Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:17 am

long is okay, onomatopoeic. Perhaps some more dynamic/colour can be found from the space lexicon...

https://www.twinkl.co.uk/teaching-wiki/space-words

Phil
JJHenderson
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Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:19 am

Hi Phil,

Ah, thanks for heads up on the errant capitalization. Damn auto-cap from Microsoft Word; I still miss it sometimes when it does that and I don't want it to. For some poems I still like the old-fashioned caps at line beginnings, so I've never turned the feature off.

I flipped through the page on space terms; the problem is finding one that's a monosyllable that will work with the meter. Probably the closest one would be "mass," but I'm not sure how well that works; the word would be carrying a lot of connotation (the "mass" of all human births, the "mass" of a pregnant stomach, the "mass" of matter that is a fetus, etc.) but I don't know how clear any of them would be; but I love wordplay so I'll think on it.

Hi Miles,

Pleased to meet another science/space enthusiast! I love Tyson as his enthusiasm for space and man's place in the universe is so inspiring and infectious. Sean Carroll is another hero of mine; not just for his science, but also for his more philosophical views and very rationalistic approach to subjects. I do know about this being the most peaceful time in human history; Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature was a real eye opener on that subject. What you say about the "many things we don't know... may never know... won't even think to ask about" was very much on my mind here, as was what you said about the accelerated expansion of space-time and our eventual inability to see other galaxies through our telescopes.

Good call on the rough enjambment of L4. At first I thought the "blast" at the line beginning gave it a bit of a punch, but the more I read it the more I don't like it. Your revision is helpful but I'll have to make it work with the meter.
MilesTRanter
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Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:35 am

Hi JJ,

Yes, indeed! I've heard many talks by Sean Carroll (who accepts the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics), as well as Neil, Brian Greene, and Lawrence Krauss. I even own a book called "Einstein for Dummies."

Miles
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Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:38 am

HI JJ,
I prefer the sonics of long to mass, though I like the thinking very much.

What’s left are shreds and specks, just cosmic mites,
the battles with dark matter partly won.
Just an illustrative thought on utilising this diction.

best

Phil
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Lia
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Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:28 am

This is thought-provoking and well handled, JJ. I think I may have slightly misunderstood you about repeats, in the other thread. Villanelles know all about echoes!

This reminds me a little of Dylan Thomas with its all encompassing theme of life and death. I enjoy the questioning set against the backdrop of Space and the interesting way you create each line. This is a powerful repeat;

"like fetuses towards a chilling light"

My favourite area of the poem is this;

"How much is already beyond our sight

before we breach our lids to look? We might
have seen nothing, darkness, not any one,
like fetuses behind a dimming light."

It's beautifully written; in language, meaning and timing.

I've been pondering two areas of the poem. The first is this;

"How much is "all?" Ready, beyond our sight,

it’s still revolving; fragment satellites"

I'm stopped by the singular of 'it's' followed by the semicolon and the plural of 'satellites'. I appreciate you already use 'and' two lines before, but I'd still be tempted to replace 'it's' with 'and'. The other area is your closing stanza;
What’s left are shreds and specks, just motes and mites,
The aftermaths of battles partly won.
How much? It’s already beyond our sight.
We’re fetuses outside that warming light.
This is just one idea I had because 'are' in the first line interrupts the fluid nature of the reading;

What’s left but shreds and specks, the motes and mites?
Those aftermaths of battles partly won.
How much? It’s already beyond our sight.
We’re fetuses outside that warming light.

You'll notice I reinstated 'the motes'. See what you think. There might be something here to springboard from, at least.

I very much enjoyed this, many thanks.

Lia
MilesTRanter
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Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Hi JJ,

I just noticed something: "mites" is the only plural “ite” word in the whole villanelle. Also, except for that “s” there’s the homophone of “might/mite(s).” That’s an interesting type of rhyme and I like it. But I’m not wild about the “s.”

This might be one solution:

What’s left are shreds and specks, a mote, a mite,

or, possibly, combined with Lia's idea:

What’s left but shreds and specks, a mote, a mite?

Though the plural may irk some readers, if it doesn’t bother you, no worries. I just thought I’d mention it, just in case you may find it useful.

Martin
JJHenderson
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Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:01 am

Hi Phil,

I also think I prefer the sonics of “long” to “mass” but I like the latter more on the denotative/connotative level. Interesting thought on the cosmic mites… will consider. Great idea with "battles with dark matter." I've used it, slightly modified.

Hi Lia,

Thanks for the kudos and the very thoughtful read. Certainly not all repetition in poetry is bad—some amount is necessary for the establishment of patterns and motifs—but my general view with refrains is that what makes them interesting are how they change in subtle ways as they recur. I’m not as big a fan of poems with refrains or repetitions in which their meaning remains static, unless the poem is going for a kind of incantatory feel, which I think is what Dylan Thomas was going for in his famous villanelle.

I think your crits and suggestions are very perceptive too, and I've made use of them in my latest revision.

Hi Miles,

So cool to meet another Sean Carroll fan. Yeah, he largely turned me on to many worlds, and though I started out skeptical he was a big influence in convincing me it’s currently the best view of QM, the one that Occam likes best.

Normally I don’t mind much if rhymes are on the singular or plural. Rhymes in English are so limited anyway (compared to, say, French) that I think it’s good poets use plurals or half/slant-rhymes or pararhymes or even just assonance to expand the word-options of end-rhymes. That said, if given a choice, especially in a villanelle, I would prefer to have the singular rhyme, all else being equal, so I will keep both yours and Lia’s suggestions in mind.
Macavity
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Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:03 am

What’s left but shreds and specks? They're cosmic mites
from battles with dark matters partly won.
How much? It’s already beyond our sight.
We’re fetuses outside that warming light.
An overload of sibilance JJ? 'dark matter' has more weight without the 's'?
JJHenderson
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:18 am

Hi Phil,

At first I balked at the sibilance, but then I thought that the scattered S's had the effect of mimicking the scattered "shreds and shards," with those S's evoking the sharpness of the pieces left. I will have a think over whether it's a bit too much though, maybe with the aim of eliminating at least one. The reason I went with "dark matters" plural is because the singular draws the mind TOO much to the scientific, while the plural foregrounds the "serious things" meaning and allows the scientific one to hang more alongside it.
Macavity
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:08 am

I know JJ, but it felt dishonest/obvious, rather than nuanced/playful. In fact, the play succeeds better with the science label and the meanings implied within the poem's context. But that is me. I recognise that such terminology carries a weight of scientific meaning that a reader may not bother with contextual meaning. The trials of opacity in poetry :lol:

Phil
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Lia
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:16 pm

Hello JJ, I just wanted to pop back in to say how well your revision reads. These, which might be considered small edits, make such a noticeable difference to the reading of the poem. It flows beautifully.

Lia
JJHenderson
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Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:05 am

Hi Phil,

I can totally see that perspective as well. It's a close call for me, and I will definitely have it in my mind during my next edit.

Hi Lia,

Thanks!
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